Zion Life Newsletter Part 1 December 2009
Friends,
“They devoted their time in learning from the apostles, taking part in the fellowship, sharing in the meals, and the prayers.” (Acts 2:42)
This was ‘church’, as the Christian community in the first century. It is still the core of the Christian community in the twenty-first century. Learning. Fellowship. Meals. Prayers.
It may seem too simple, compared with present concerns, yet they had their differences, and issues of the day, but their focus was on their differences, and issues of the day, but their focus was on their relationship with God – learning and prayers… and their relationship with each other – meals and fellowship.
The church in every generation is challenged, to live the gospel – the good news of Jesus Christ for all people. In word and deed, the gathered people of God witness to the one who calls us together.
“They’ll know we are Christians by our love” is more than the refrain of a popular hymn, it is also a call to commitment for the body of Christ, the church. we will walk with each other. We will work with each other. We are one in the spirit.
It is not only what we do as a Christian congregation, it is also how we go about doing our business, that should set us apart from other groups and organizations.
The letter writers in the New Testament, Paul, Peter, John, … walked a fine line with the congregations they counseled. Supportive. Disappointed. Excited. Upset. Blessings. Warnings…yet, always loving.
As we come to the end of one year, and begin another… as we have entered the period of time we call the holiday season… as our schedules get overloaded with activities… may we continue to gather as a Christian community for learning, fellowship, meals, and prayers… and in doing so, “they’ll know we are Christians by our love.”
May God’s peace be with all of us.
Pastor Stef Zehrfuhs
Dear Members of Zion and St. Matthews Chapel:
October’s activities came and went without another communication, as promised. We apologize for our tardiness, but now have information to share. Council has been meeting often to discuss our issues and how best to approach each one.
The meaning of the Human Sexuality Social Statement continues to be discussed so we can understand how this effects, or does not effect our congregation. Previously, Pastor Paul Messner came to Zion and presented his opposing view to the statement. Rich and Colleen Quirion attended the Lutheran CORE meeting in Indianapolis, Indiana, and gave us information to consider if the Congregation wanted to leave the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) over the Human Sexuality Social Statement. Pastor Jim Slater will be presenting his supporting view in Zion’s Assembly Hall on Wednesday, November 18, 2009, at 7:00 P.M. Opinions are very strong on this issue. We encourage everyone to become educated on this issue.
The Council has planned a Special Congregational Meeting to discuss this issue on Sunday, December 6, 2009, at 12:30 P.M. in Zion’s Assembly Hall. This meeting was prompted by a petition for a special meeting of the congregation of Zion/St Matthew’s Lutheran Churches to determine by vote the future relationship of the local church to (the) ELCA. In order for the Council to know how this issue effects the Congregation, a vote will be taken. The congregation will be casting a vote for the following:
- No change to the church’s relationship with the ELCA.
- Yes to change the church’s relationship with the ELCA.
Notice of this meeting will be made according to our bylaws. This will be the only topic discussed at this meeting. A quorum for the meeting will be at least 10% of the voting members. A voting member is a confirmed (baptized) member at least 16 years of age who has taken communion and made a contribution of record to this congregation during the past two (2) years. A voting member must be present to cast a ballot. Voting by proxy or absentee ballot is not permitted. A simple majority vote (50%+1) by the congregation will direct the action of Council to move forward. Any subsequent votes may require two-thirds majority of the congregation.
We know you may have questions or concerns. The Special Meeting will serve to explain the issue in more detail. We need your voice to be heard and request all voting members of Zion and St. Matthews Chapel to attend the meeting.
Let us continue to pray for our congregation to be unified and supportive during these challenging times, knowing we can move forward toward revitalization for our church.
Yours in Christ,
Your Congregation Council
Articles from the
Constitution of Zion Evangelical Lutheran concerning membership, voting members and congregational meetings.
Chapter 8.
MEMBERSHIP
C8.01. Members of this congregation shall be those baptized persons on the roll of this congregation at the time that this constitution is adopted and those who are admitted thereafter and who have declared and maintain their membership in accordance with the provisions of this constitution and its bylaws.
C8.02. Members shall be classified as follows:
a. Baptized members are those persons who have been received by the Sacrament of Holy Baptism in this congregation, or, having been previously baptized in the name of the Triune God, have been received by certificate of transfer from other Lutheran congregations or by affirmation of faith.
b. Confirmed members are baptized persons who have been confirmed in this congregation, those who have been received by adult baptism or by transfer as confirmed members from other Lutheran congregations, or baptized persons received by affirmation of faith.
c. Voting members are confirmed members who have obtained the age of 16 years. Such confirmed members shall have communed and made a contribution of record during the current or preceding year.
d. Associate members are persons holding membership in other Christian congregations who wish to retain such membership but desire to participate in the life and mission of this congregation. They have all the privileges and duties of membership except voting rights and eligibility for elected offices or membership on the Congregation Council of this congregation.
C8.03. All applications for confirmed membership shall be submitted to and shall require the approval of the Congregation Council.
C8.04. It shall be the privilege and duty of members of this congregation to:
a. make regular use of the means of grace, both Word and sacraments;
b. live a Christian life in accordance with the Word of God and the teachings of the Lutheran church; and
c. support the work of this congregation, the synod, and the church-wide organization of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America through contributions of their time, abilities, and financial support as biblical stewards.
C8.05. Membership in this congregation shall be terminated by any of the following:
a. death;
b. resignation;
c. transfer or release;
d. disciplinary action by the Congregation Council; or
e. removal from the roll due to inactivity as defined in the bylaws. Such persons who have been removed from the roll of members shall remain persons for whom the church has a continuing pastoral concern.
Chapter 10.
CONGREGATION MEETING
C10.01. The annual meeting of this congregation shall be held at a time specified in the bylaws. (January)
C10.02. A special Congregation Meeting may be called by the pastor, the Congregation Council, or the president of this congregation, and shall be called at the written request of 25 voting members. The call for each special meeting shall specify the purpose for which it is to be held and no other business shall be transacted.
C10.03. Notice of all meetings of this congregation shall be given at the services of worship on the preceding two consecutive Sundays and by mail to all [voting] members at least 10 days in advance of the date of the meeting. The posting of such notice in the regular mail, with the regular postage affixed or paid, sent to the last known address of such members shall be sufficient.
C10.04. 10% of the voting members shall constitute a quorum.
C10.05. Voting by proxy or by absentee ballot shall not be permitted.
C10.06. All actions by the congregation shall be by majority vote except as otherwise provided in this constitution.
C10.07. Robert’s Rules of Order, latest edition, shall govern parliamentary procedure of all meetings of this congregation.
Fair Trade Craft Fair & Bake Sale
December 12, 2009 – 9am-2pm
in Zion’s Assembly Hall
Besides crafts and baked goods, other snacks and beverages will be available to purchase.
To benefit – “Spirit of Hope”
Ministries that need your Stewardship
Acolyte (training), Sunday School Coordinator, Altar Guild Leader, Evangelism/Outreach Leader, and Serving Schedule Communion Asst. Coordinator. If you would like to lead any of these teams or know of someone that would like to, contact the church office at 234-3381.
Cradle Roll
After many years her stewardship to Zion and St. Matthew’s Cradle Roll, Greta Rehberg is retiring from this ministry. Thank you so much Greta. If you would consider taking over this extension of baptism or would like to know more about this or even know of someone that would like to, contact the church office at 234-3381
Poinsettias
Zion will have eight-inch plants available for $9 each and St. Matthew’s will have seven-inch plants available for $7 each. To place your order at Zion, contact Margaret Angle at 234-7131; and at St. Matthew’s contact Jackie Costello at 284-2368. Make sure to let them know who the flowers are in memory of, in thanksgiving for, or in honor of.
Advent Tea
December 5, 2009
10am-noon
In Zion’s assembly hall.
Invite a friend! Bring an ornament to exchange. All Ladies Welcome!
Zion’s W.E.L.C.A. Circle News
At our November meeting, plans were made for the annual Advent Tea. Mark your calendar for December 5, 2009. Plan to come along with a friend and bring an ornament to exchange. There will be special music, good food and Christian fellowship as we prepare our hearts for the coming of the Christ child. If you have a nativity you would like to display, contact Sandy Deems (we will be setting up on December 4).
Our next regular meeting will be in January on the second Saturday, at 10am. At that meeting we will continue our Bible study of Romans and plan events for the upcoming year.
Submitted by, Sandy Deems, W.E.L.C.A. team leader
In Memorium
Thank you Lord for the lives of Lodene and Hoysli Hathaway that we were privileged to be a small part of at Zion. In honor of both I would like to share one of Lodene’s poems that appeared in Zion Life in December 1997.
Stable Birth
I really didn’t know what the fuss was all about.
I heard only excited voices raised behind the village inn.
Someone said an infant had been delivered there that night in an animal shelter. A poor place to be born in.
Going out I encountered those who claimed they’d heard voices from on high; that a brilliant star had shone.
It all sounded exaggerated and completely absurd
When I learned that the parents were poor and unknown.
I decided to drop by, curious about what had been said and found my self upon my knees beside the baby in that shed.
Written by Lodene Hathaway
Submitted by Sandy Deems
Dear Friends at Zion,
I can’t begin to tell you how much your love and support has meant to me and my family during this very difficult time. It was so hard to lose my mother and then my dad so soon after.
Those of you who came and visited my dad this fall will always have my deepest gratitude and I will never forget your kindness.
Your support through the two memorial services was a great gift. Many, many thanks to the very great cooks who provided the food to help us reaffirm life.
With gratitude your friend Sue Hathaway.
Thank you,
“Please accept my most sincere thanks and gratitude for the very lovely baby bonnets you recently dropped off at our Volunteer Office. Your act of kindness is a symbol of new life and hope for all of the very beautiful babies we welcome at our Bellevue campus. They mean more to families than you can every imagine.”
Fondly, Joyce McCormack of Ellis Hospital
Dear Sisters & Brothers in Christ
We wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for the wonderful dinner last week. Special thanks to Karl and all his helpers for a delicious thanksgiving meal!
The kind words and memories were a blessing as well as being able to visit with so many special people. We truly appreciate all the notes of prayer, support and love that we have received.
The generous gift in addition to the severance package was a surprise – thanks to all who provided this gift.
Each of you remain in our thoughts and prayers as God leads us down new paths of mission and ministry.
God’s peace and blessings always,
Pastor Jen and Michael
Worship Attendance
8:30am 9am 11am
October 25 57 23 28
November 1 55 15 17
November 8 55 23
November 15 60 23 20
November 22 60 16 23
Homebound for the Holidays, Part II
As you read this report, you probably know that our annual Homebound for the Holidays project started in mid-November. Homebound members of the congregation got Thanksgiving cards from those of us who are participating in the program, originally started by Visitation Deacon Adrienne Madison.
What you may not know is that Council member Chris Thaxter has made some Zion Sunday school students and teachers part of Homebound for the Holidays 2009. At the October Council meeting, Chris took the first full set set of address cards to share with Sunday school students and teachers who want to send holiday cards to homebound people in the congregation.
Chris also passed out address cards to adults attending the November community breakfast.
Chris recently told me that Sunday school students will also be making Christmas cards, which will include photographs of the card makers, to send to the homebound so that those senior citizens can put names with faces.
I want to take this opportunity to thank Chris and other Zion Sunday school teachers who are getting our young people involved in this annual activity, which brings a little more holiday joy to people who don’t get out very often.
Chris reported that F.R.O.G. members are also getting involved with Homebound for the Holidays 2009.
Thank you, Sunday school teachers and students at Zion, for your support of Homebound for the Holidays 2009!!
on eating less at all-you-can-eat buffets
Several years ago I wrote about why all-you-can-eat buffets are bad for waist- and weight watchers: all that tasty food may encourage us to overeat in an attempt to “get our money’s worth.”
The November 2009 issue of the Nutrition Action Healthletter has advice on how to eat less at one of those buffets, like the popular one that we have here in Cobleskill. The report originally appeared in the journal Obesity.
When eating at an all-you-can-eat buffet, we should
1. use a small plate, which will hold less food.
2. thoroughly survey all the food tables so that we know what our choices are before we start filling our (first) plate.
3. use chopsticks at a Chinese restaurant so that we will eat more slowly–and maybe eat less as well.
4. sit with our backs to the food tables so that we aren’t looking at more tasty food items that we missed the first time around.
I love going to all-you-can-eat Chinese restaurants. However, I hate myself afterwards because I always overeat. Maybe these tricks from Obesity may help me make my next trip to our local Chinese buffet less filling than it’s been in the past.
I can only hope.
In His name and image,
John Jarvis, Health Ministries
St. Matthew’s matters
The Ministry Board at St. Matthew’s Chapel, hereafter referred to the “MB,” met on Tuesday, November 3, at 6:59 PM. Eleven people attended the meeting, which began with a prayer led by Deacon Marcy Wright.
Using our usual round-table format, Tom Collins discussed recent Council activities, like the special Council meeting scheduled on Veterans’ Day at 7:00. Topics at that meeting will probably include the ELCA, Lutheran CORE, fall stewardship pledges and a possible intentional interim pastor. Furthermore, Pr. Slater will be at Zion on November 19 to discuss decisions made in Minneapolis over the summer. Tom reminded the MB members that getting an interim patsor is tied to being in the ELCA.
Marcy Wright commented that any discussions need to use language understandable to lay people.
Bill Wright jokingly suggested that we change our outside combination padlock to one with a key so that fingertips don’t get so cold on those soon-to-come long winter nights.
John Jarvis told about the December 19 Christmas program at the Chapel. Sunday school teacher Suzanne Graulich will direct. He also mentioned the recent pumpkin auction and November 14 thank-offering dinner.
The MB agreed to use some of the profit from the very successful pumpkin auction to fund our second annual “Cabin Fever Party” in February 2010.
Jean Bakkom and Jackie Costello agreed to host the next coffee hour.
Marge Hayner talked about the hayride organized by her and her husband on All Saints Sunday. A total of 24 Sunday school students and friends rode the haywagon from the Chapel to the Hayner home, where six pounds of hotdogs, three gallons of hot chocolate and a gallon of hot cider awaited the kids and 13 parents. Five additional kids, who didn’t ride the wagon, were at the Hayner home when the wagon arrived.
Dave also started a huge bonfire.
A picture of the haywagon appeared in the Times Journal’s November 4 election edition, and an article about the event can be found somewhere in this edition of Zion Life.
Dave Costello discussed free food for veterans at Applebee’s and the Golden Corral on Veterans’ Day. He also told us about the furnace recently repaired by Ray Parsons. Dave also explained why we need to keep the two ceiling fans on 24/7 all year long. He also asked John Jarvis to contract Andre Nadeau about a timer on both Chapel furnaces.
Jean Bakkom explained why we need to train our acolytes in use of the shopping cart on the second Sunday of each month, when we collect food for the Zion food pantry.
Jackie Costello discussed poinsettias and readers for the Service of Lessons and Carols.
Members got into a discussion of young people riding bikes dangerously in our parking lot. Should we post signs about trespassing? Do such signs protect us from liability in case of an accident? We need to check our insurance policy.
We ended with the Lord’s Prayer at 7:59.
At St. Matthew’s Chapel we have much to be thankful for, including coffee hours, hay rides and Christmas programs presented by Sunday school students.
In service to Christ and His church,
John Jarvis, Ministry Board secretary
Hayner hayride
On All Saints’ Day the Hayner family hosted a hayride for the St. Matthew’s Chapel Sunday school students and their friends. Parents were also invited.
Hay riders met in the Chapel parking lot at 4:30. Twenty-four kids rode in the hay wagon.
The air was very cool, but the sky was clear–unlike on Halloween night.
Linda Van Schoick led the singing on the haywagon.
The ride ended at the Hayner home, where hot goodies awaited them: three gallons of hot chocolate, six pounds of hot dogs and one gallon of hot cider.
Five more children greeted them at the house, for a total of 29 kids. Thirteen adults were also part of the festivities.
Dave Hayner had problems getting his bonfire started, but it was huge when it did get started.
The Ministry Board at St. Matthew’s considers the event a huge success, perhaps the start of a fall tradition at the Chapel.
John Jarvis,
St. Matthew’s Ministry Board secretary
Lutheran in Step with Christ
By Rev. Gary Kluball
First published: October 31, 2009
On October 31, 1517, a monk named Martin Luther nailed a set of statements to the castle church door in Wittenberg, Germany. The hammer blows not only fastened paper to wood. Those 95 Theses rocked the church of the western world. As Luther studied the Bible, he continued to write and teach doctrines the church did not approve. In early 1521, Pope Leo excommunicated Luther.
A deciding moment came later in 1521. Luther answered a summons to appear before Emperor Charles V in the German city of Worms. He went expecting opportunity to explain his teaching but was simply instructed to retract his writings.
“Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason,” Luther responded, “I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience.”
That moment defined the foundation of Christianity that would come to be known as Lutheran. God’s Word is everything. It is the source of truth, the anchor of faith and the guarantee of what is yet to come. Lutherans live with a confidence that echoes Luther’s declaration: “God’s Word alone is the true, abiding rock on which a person can depend with certainty.”
Because the Bible is the foundation for Lutherans, the message of Christ is the chief doctrine. St. Paul declared in Romans 3:28, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.” Salvation by grace through faith in Christ is the prize teaching of Lutheran Christianity. It has been called, “the doctrine upon which the church stands or fails.”
What has focused media attention on Lutherans since summer is not our absolute allegiance to the Word of God. Nor is it our firm belief in forgiveness of sins and eternal salvation through faith in Christ. Instead it is a new social statement on human sexuality approved by the largest Lutheran body in the nation, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. The change signals church approval of committed same-sex relationships – both for members and pastors.
We do not oppose the change because we bear malice toward anyone. We simply believe that what the Bible calls sin, we do not approve. What God’s Word warns against, we do not sanction.
Sadly, this episode is a result of some Lutherans forgetting our heritage. It is the product of striving to walk in step with social movements rather than in step with Christ and his timeless Word. We need to understand that we can condemn all hateful attitudes, words and actions and at the same time remain true to our biblical faith.
The greater challenge to which the Lutheran church needs to rise is before us. We need to speak God’s Word clearly in our time. We need to reach out in love to all people with the warnings of God’s Word and the promises of his grace.
We invite all people to gather at the cross of Christ to enjoy God’s forgiveness together. We encourage one another, with God’s help to walk in renewal of life. This is our faith and path as Lutheran Christians.
Today is Reformation Day. We celebrate the 492nd anniversary of the day when a monk stood up and said to the church, “We need to get back to God’s Word!”
What a fitting cry for Reformation Day 2009. Authentic Lutheranism celebrates that our consciences are bound by the truth of God’s Word. Because God’s Word is true we rejoice today in the forgiveness of our sins, in salvation for our souls, and in eternal life for all people who trust in Jesus Christ.
Note: Rev. Gary Kluball is pastor of King of Kings Evangelical Lutheran Church in Clifton Park, NY.
Article from the Albany, Times Union
Submitted by Karen Wilson
Stories of Faith in Action 2009
Desert Mission – Tempe, Arizona
Desert Cross Lutheran Church in Tempe, Ariz., needed a project. They thought about a new building, but that idea didn’t generate much excitement. Instead, they started a mission outpost in Gilbert, 15 miles southeast of their Tempe location. Mission developer Dorel Meier leads a core group of Desert Cross members who are transplanting ministries from
Tempe to Gilbert and providing an instant infusion of energy and experience. She says, “As a mission developer, I can’t imagine a greater gift than having a healthy, strong congregation behind you in prayer, support, and resources. We’re not out here alone.” The Gilbert and Tempe locations function as one congregation, with a shared vision, budget, and clergy.
Meier, who spent 15 years with the Intel Corporation in strategic planning, organizational development, and marketing, held focus groups to identify three areas of ministry for Gilbert: children’s ministries; family support, such as parenting classes; and outreach and service, which includes ministering to the needs of families affected by the economic downturn. Now, Meier organizes the blossoming of the ministries that are attracting new members. Gilbert quickly grew to an average attendance of 80 in less than six months. Ordained pastors from Tempe cycle through to preach and administer sacraments. Lay people lead worship, outreach, and other programs. “What’s great about Gilbert is that everyone knows they have to pitch in and do something,” says Meier. Desert Cross hopes that Gilbert’s lay-centric missionary zeal can be transplanted back to Tempe.
Desert Cross was encouraged to open the Gilbert mission at an ELCA meeting in Minnesota where they heard stories of churches planting churches. Later, Desert Cross hosted their own ELCA conference to help other congregations plant mission sites. It is expected that other congregations will continue to take the lead in planting new ELCA congregations. Meier says, “This model works.”
God’s Word – Does Interpretation Matter?
Earlier this year, Augsburg Fortress, the ELCA publishing house came out with a new Bible entitled “Lutheran Study Bible”. I have had the opportunity to review this Bible since our niece was given one on the occasion of her confirmation in May. Some of the study notes in this new Bible seem troubling to me and seem out of step with traditional Christian teachings. I am not a theologian, but I offer the following examples for your own independent investigation and consideration.
In each instance, pull out your own Bible and read the passage for yourself. Then read what the ELCA study Bible offers in its study comments about that particular passage. You decide – do the comments seem to be in sync with the passage, or is some “new” understanding being proposed? In some instances I have printed only the pertinent part of the comment, not to mislead you, but for sake of brevity. On those occasions you will see ….. either before or after the quote, or both. I don’t believe I have altered the meaning of the comment in any way, and I will show you the entire quote if you would like more information. The words and passages which are in quotation are taken verbatim from comments in this study Bible.
Matthew 28:16-20 “… Jesus now sends the disciples to make disciples of all nations. That does not mean make everyone disciples. Most people who are helped by Jesus and believe in him never become disciples. Jesus includes in salvation people who do not believe in him or even know about him…”
Matthew 25 “….In Matthew 18, the phrase “little ones” hovers between children and adults who believe in Jesus, who become like children. The parable speaks of a surprising way the unbelieving nations have a relationship to Jesus. Jesus’ word is a promise that creates what it declares. Jesus makes these little ones, who suffer and are broken, the place of his presence in our world, even for those who do not believe in him or know about it. This is one way Jesus creates salvation for those who do not even know him….”
2 Timothy 3:16-17 “In the New Testament, the word scripture (grafe, in Greek) refers to the books of the Old Testament, not to the entire Bible. A literal translation of “inspired” (Greek word omitted by me) is “God-breathed”. This term does not mean that the Bible is inerrant or free from contradictions. It implies instead that those who read the Old Testament, which was the Bible of early Christianity, will adopt godly behavior…”
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 “wrongdoers, sodomites, Ancient writers often listed specific vices to illustrate a more general evil. Two terms in the vice list have been mistranslated from the Greek in all modern versions, and this has caused needless pain in the church: malakos (“soft,” that is, lacking self-control) and arsenokoites (literally, “one who beds a male”). Both terms are specific examples of injustice, the topic of the vice list in 6:9-11. The “soft” person (here translated “male prostitute”) takes more than his or her due. The arsenokoites (translated as “sodomite”) rapes and shames other males to increase his reputation for power. This issue here is violence. Neither term pertains to homosexuality or to the lives of gay and lesbian people.”
John 4:1-30 “4:18 the one you have now is not your husband: While we tend to think that Jesus is questioning the woman’s morals, her marital history is not the point and most likely not her fault. The reason Jesus asks her about her husband is to get her to move to another level of understanding, because she then sees Jesus as a prophet.”
John 8:1-11 The Woman Caught in Adultery “This story is not included in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts of the Gospel of John.”
Matthew 7:15-27 “know them by their fruits: There is no middle path. Even people who act in Jesus’ name and claim him as Lord can seek the easy way. False prophets are easy to spot. Claiming to speak for God, they justify limits to love, promote visible righteousness and judge others. People seek God’s rule and righteousness by living in God’s love and forgiveness. No one does so without struggle. But any easier path leads to destruction (see Rom 2:13).”
These and many other examples that I could give you convince me that the issue at hand over which we are agonizing is much bigger than sexuality. It is indeed about God’s word and our view of it. As one final example, let me share a comment from page 1860 of the new Bible entitled “How do Lutherans understand God’s law? The law has two main functions or “uses.” Under the first use (generally called the “civil use”), the law provides rules to show humans how to live with God and neighbor, and it provides consequences when those rules are broken. The second use (called the “theological” or “pedagogical use”) reveals the extent of our sin and our need for a savior. Some Lutherans and Christians from other traditions argue for a third use of the law, in which the law provides guidelines for Christian life.” I guess I am a member of that disfavored third group, which actually I believe includes all of historic traditional Christendom. Each one of us has to make that decision of where we stand.
Yours in Christ;
Colleen Quirion